SunOrange seed group buy + choosing plant varieties advice

[mincent]

Hi all! I'm new to the forum and a college student trying to plan out my container garden for the spring. I'm planning to get SunOrange seeds after seeing glowing reviews from Barb_FL and others, but the $7 shipping on one pack of seeds from Tomato Growers is killing me. Is there any way to arrange a group buy for seeds and split up a bulk order to defray shipping/unit costs, or is anyone offering SunOrange seeds for sale for less shipping? I believe in the USPS enough to ship seeds in a regular envelope to make it cheaper, lol.

On a separate note, I was hoping for some advice from anyone who's grown these varieties that I've tentatively planned. It's kind of a long list for my first real garden but I'll probably pare it down. A few general notes: I am trying to prioritize OP and non-patented/open source plants, but if hybrids or protected varieties are significantly better I'll buy them. Additionally, I'm thinking of getting grow lights (something like the VS XS1500 Pro, ~$80 on Amazon rn), wondering if it was worth it for year round/winter growing of herbs and tomatoes and for starting seeds. Same deal with a heat mat (I've heard bad things about Vivosun's electronics but they're so cheap..), seed starting trays (either gonna get cheap temp *Bleep* from Amazon or invest in something durable like Bootstrap Farmer's trays), and more fabric pots (thinking packs of 3gal and 5gal pots from Vivosun or whatever's cheapest for now).

Herbs
- Genovese basil: Lihi Prospera Active from Johnny's. I've heard anecdotal evidence of downy mildew being a more significant issue in recent years in Virginia (I'm in new zone 7b in the Piedmont) so thought it might be worth investing in a highly resistant plant like the Prospera Actives. If it's not as much of a concern, then any recommendations for best tasting variety? I looked at Profumo di Genova as a possibility.
- Thai basil: Everleaf Thai Towers from Hazzard's or Johnny's. Chosen for slow bolting and suitability for container growth, but if you know of any better tasting varieties, please let me know--it's been really hard to find detailed information on more niche plant types like Asian cultivars. A couple people reviewed Queenette from Renee's favorably, but I don't know if they cooked with it.
- Holy basil: Rama Tulsi from Nikitovka, Johnny's, or Hazzard's. Chosen for flavor/cooking as it's the same species as cultivars of kaprao/holy basil in Thailand, and anecdotally similar tasting. NOT looking for "kapoor" or temperate tulsi, which is Ocimum x africanum and often mislabeled as true holy basil/Ocimum tenuiflorum or Ocimum sanctum (common misnomer/synonym). Richo Cech from Strictly Medicinal has a great post on types of tulsi.
- Cilantro: Calypso/Cruiser/Pokey Joe from Hazzard's. A couple sources claim Pokey Joe is better tasting or less soapy than other cilantros in trials run by a few growers, but I love the flavor of cilantro regardless, so I was wondering if maybe I should grow Calypso for bolt resistance or Cruiser for more upright plants better suited to containers.
- Garlic chives: Geisha, from Hazzard's or Nikitovka. AAS winner, again claimed to have better flavor than other varieties, but let me know if you think "generic" garlic chives/scallions/cilantro/etc seeds will be fine.

Fruits & Vegetables
- Tomato: SunOrange from TGS and Rosella Purple from a free seed swap. SunOrange is chosen as an improved SunGold, while Rosella Purple is for flavor and as a dwarf so I can grow it in 5-gal containers. I'm also receiving Rosella Crimson and Cherokee Purple in the seed swap, so I might grow those as well if I have space.
- Scallion: Kyoto Kujo Negi from Kitazawa or Nabechan (F1) from Johnny's. Kyoto Kujo Negi is a Kyoto heirloom vegetable that's supposed to stay thin and bulbless and taste superior, while Nabechan is a hybrid also bred for flavor and is supposedly sweeter/more complex and less pungent. Fun fact, through the magic of weird pricing algorithms Kyoto Kujo Negi seeds from Kitazawa (through a reseller True Leaf Market) are $4 on Walmart with free shipping, at least for me--check if the deal is valid for you.
- Butter lettuce: Salanova Green Butter from Johnny's. Salanova's leaves are supposed to be more densely layered/higher yielding, so with limited space/containers I was thinking extra productivity couldn't hurt.
- Strawberry: Elan (F1) from Johnny's. Day-neutral variety meant to be productive and very flavorful. I was also considering Albion or another day-neutral cultivar.

[Cranraspberry]

@mincent We’re in the DC area and Prospera basil is the only variety that grows to maturity for us. Everything else dies a quick death from DM. We have the regular Prospera (not Active) from Harris - they offer free shipping deals fairly regularly if you sign up for their emails/get the app.

Regarding fabric pots take a look at Root Pouch from Home Depot. Their bulk prices were great, and it’s a really quality product. I haven’t tried Vivosun, but can definitely recommend Root Pouch. Note that they have different variations (colors and handles, the gray ones are the thinnest), and if you play around there can be price differences. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Root-Pouch- ... /306677084

[mincent]

@mincent We’re in the DC area and Prospera basil is the only variety that grows to maturity for us. Everything else dies a quick death from DM. We have the regular Prospera (not Active) from Harris - they offer free shipping deals fairly regularly if you sign up for their emails/get the app.

Regarding fabric pots take a look at Root Pouch from Home Depot. Their bulk prices were great, and it’s a really quality product. I haven’t tried Vivosun, but can definitely recommend Root Pouch. Note that they have different variations (colors and handles, the gray ones are the thinnest), and if you play around there can be price differences. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Root-Pouch- ... /306677084

@Cranraspberry Thanks for the advice! I’ll probably stick with a resistant variety then. I can’t remember where I saw it, but there was a cooperative extension study or something that compared disease resistant varieties and found the Rutgers line (Obsession, Devotion, etc) was beginning to fail against DM while Prospera wasn’t. Funny you linked the Root Pouches—my original post was gonna say I’m buying cheap pots like Vivosun cause investing in a full set of Root Pots is too expensive right now, but those are pretty cheap considering! I’ll definitely look into them, thanks.

[Cornelius_Gotchberg]

We used to plant our Lettuce Leaf (https://www.rareseeds.com/basil-lettuce-leaf) and Emerald Tower Basils (started from seed) in one of the raised beds. Tried it in containers this year and it lasted twice as long as the other method, so it's containers from here on in!

I believe Baker's Creek Rare Seeds has free shipping thru 12/26.

The Gotch

[Cole_Robbie]

Led lights don't come with a fan on the ballast, but if you put a little computer fan on one, the ballast goes from too hot to touch to only barely warm. It would stand to reason that running much cooler like that would make the light last longer.

[rossomendblot]

Cilantro: I have grown Calypso and am quite happy with it. It's definitely worth getting a bolt-resistant variety, they do still go to seed in hot weather but you get a longer harvest period. Successional sowings are important.

Scallions: I don't mind if they bulb, it takes a long time and if you forget to eat them or can't keep up, at least you still get an onion. Ishikura is the Japanese variety usually sold over here but I stopped growing it because they got rust every year. Now I just grow whatever's on sale!

Garlic chives: I didn't even know there were different varieties! Can't imagine there's that much difference in taste between them.

I've not grown the salanovas, and while they look great, they're also probably the most expensive lettuce seeds around. Most varieties of lettuce, apart from big cos or iceberg types, don't take up much space. I usually plant 4 to a square foot and they do great. We typically grow about 16 'cut and come again' lettuces and that's more than enough for 3 people.

[mincent]

We used to plant our Lettuce Leaf (https://www.rareseeds.com/basil-lettuce-leaf) and Emerald Tower Basils (started from seed) in one of the raised beds. Tried it in containers this year and it lasted twice as long as the other method, so it's containers from here on in!

I believe Baker's Creek Rare Seeds has free shipping thru 12/26.

The Gotch

@Cornelius_Gotchberg Lettuce leaf/mammoth basil was definitely eye catching and one I hope to grow sometime. Good to hear that the containers suit basil well! Were you happy with Emerald Towers or did its upright nature limit the harvest? That’s the only concern I have with Thai Towers—less bushiness might also mean less leaves. Also, Baker’s Creek is lovely but unfortunately doesn’t stock many of the niche varieties I want—I’ll keep an eye out though, who knows.

Led lights don't come with a fan on the ballast, but if you put a little computer fan on one, the ballast goes from too hot to touch to only barely warm. It would stand to reason that running much cooler like that would make the light last longer.

As a matter of fact, I built my own PC so I have a few spare computer fans! Maybe I’ll stick one on there if I get one and see if it does anything

Cilantro: I have grown Calypso and am quite happy with it. It's definitely worth getting a bolt-resistant variety, they do still go to seed in hot weather but you get a longer harvest period. Successional sowings are important.

Scallions: I don't mind if they bulb, it takes a long time and if you forget to eat them or can't keep up, at least you still get an onion. Ishikura is the Japanese variety usually sold over here but I stopped growing it because they got rust every year. Now I just grow whatever's on sale!

Garlic chives: I didn't even know there were different varieties! Can't imagine there's that much difference in taste between them.

I've not grown the salanovas, and while they look great, they're also probably the most expensive lettuce seeds around. Most varieties of lettuce, apart from big cos or iceberg types, don't take up much space. I usually plant 4 to a square foot and they do great. We typically grow about 16 'cut and come again' lettuces and that's more than enough for 3 people.

Calypso sounds appealing then if bolting is such an issue. I’m forgetful enough that succession plantings might be a bit hit or miss, so getting the slowest bolting variety sounds like a good backup.
I personally only use scallions and don’t really cook with onions too often, so a non bulbing one is ideal for me. Is rust an issue with Ishikura specifically or most varieties?
Honestly, I didn’t know either until I did this deep dive of research into the types on offer in anxious anticipation of starting the garden.
The Salanova seeds are pretty expensive, honestly. They’re meant to be grown full size, but would probably work for C&CA. It’s affordable as a one time expense, but theoretically a patent prevents any seed saving on your own property unlike PVPA so you’d have to buy new ones every year, which I… disagree with, let’s say Other varieties I was considering were Winter Density or Adriana, or Buttercrunch which I got along with true lemon basil (O. x africanum) from my local library’s seed library!

[Cranraspberry]

I think the Salanovas are mostly meant for market growers - their selling point is that you can easily harvest with one cut, which isn’t as important for the backyard gardener. Harris has a similar line available called Eazyleaf: https://www.harrisseeds.com/blogs/from- ... af-lettuce

[Cranraspberry]

@mincent I just realized that we have quite a few varieties that you’re interested in - Everleaf Thai Towers (haven’t grown it yet), Prospera, Cruiser, Winter Density. If you like, PM me your address and I can send you some seeds. I could also throw in some Mammolo basil, Ishikura bunching onion and Sun Gold if you were interested in any of those. Oh, also Newham lettuce - one of my favorites.

[Cornelius_Gotchberg]

@mincent We LUV Lettuce Leaf; you's have to start it early (~ March 5-10, here) because it takes a long time to grow from seed.

The Emerald Tower lasted a LONG time, was bushy enough, and out-produced the raised bed leaf-wise.

The Gotch

[bower]

All sounding like perfect crops for a container garden.

Did you know: if you cut your scallions instead of pulling them, they regrow way faster than starting again from seed. I grow Hardy Evergreen and another "Perennial" green onion, and I cut mine maybe half an inch from the ground and let them come back. Some also multiply themselves as a perennial, making a bigger clump.
At a certain point (depending on variety) they will flower and set seed. And then you can sow some more, for free.

Johnny's has great stuff but they've become one of the more expensive places to buy seed, as they are catering more to the 'small farm' than they are to the gardener. (One year I compared carrot seed prices across shops, and for the most part they were the same per seed, but if the basic packet is larger than your needs, you are paying more for it.)

If you can save on seeds, you can put your budget into those lights and root packs

[Cole_Robbie]

I should also mention about the fan, you would want to suspend it above the ballast. Placing it directly on it would work, but if the fan were to fail, it could heat up and be a fire hazard.

[mincent]

I think the Salanovas are mostly meant for market growers - their selling point is that you can easily harvest with one cut, which isn’t as important for the backyard gardener. Harris has a similar line available called Eazyleaf: https://www.harrisseeds.com/blogs/from- ... af-lettuce

@mincent I just realized that we have quite a few varieties that you’re interested in - Everleaf Thai Towers (haven’t grown it yet), Prospera, Cruiser, Winter Density. If you like, PM me your address and I can send you some seeds. I could also throw in some Mammolo basil, Ishikura bunching onion and Sun Gold if you were interested in any of those. Oh, also Newham lettuce - one of my favorites.

Just messaged, I really appreciate it! I’m likely gonna get Salanova just because I’m particular about the lettuce I like and green butterheads are my favorite. I’ve also seen some good reviews left by home gardeners, so I’m just curious if it can produce well/grow high yielding full size heads in small containers. I did see Newham was popular on a few different websites, and a mini head sounds fun to try out.

[mincent]

@mincent We LUV Lettuce Leaf; you's have to start it early (~ March 5-10, here) because it takes a long time to grow from seed.

The Emerald Tower lasted a LONG time, was bushy enough, and out-produced the raised bed leaf-wise.

The Gotch

Good to know, it sounds great for my limited space then. Theoretically I’ll keep my herbs alive year round once they’re up and running so hopefully I can propagate them to cut down on costs/time!

[mincent]

All sounding like perfect crops for a container garden.

Did you know: if you cut your scallions instead of pulling them, they regrow way faster than starting again from seed. I grow Hardy Evergreen and another "Perennial" green onion, and I cut mine maybe half an inch from the ground and let them come back. Some also multiply themselves as a perennial, making a bigger clump.
At a certain point (depending on variety) they will flower and set seed. And then you can sow some more, for free.

Johnny's has great stuff but they've become one of the more expensive places to buy seed, as they are catering more to the 'small farm' than they are to the gardener. (One year I compared carrot seed prices across shops, and for the most part they were the same per seed, but if the basic packet is larger than your needs, you are paying more for it.)

If you can save on seeds, you can put your budget into those lights and root packs

I had heard about that! Hoping to do the same and get perpetual harvests on my green onions and basil/herbs. And I definitely sensed that from the pricing haha, great bulk deals I can’t take advantage of. I’m mostly getting harder to find varieties there like maybe Nabechan (F1) or Salanova, the rest from Hazzard’s or elsewhere. After cranraspberry’s kind offer my seed shopping list is significantly cut down, actually—potentially checking genovese basil, thai basil, and cilantro on the list as well as a bunch of bonus varieties. As such, I might be able to afford a little more for the other seeds.

[Barb_FL]

I would stay away from any of the Salvanova (and also try to avoid pelleted lettuce seeds if possible). I bought Salvanova twice, once was the variety pack. The Salvanova seeds didn't even last a season before they stopped germinating. Pelleted lettuce seeds also have a shorter germination span but not as bad as Salvanova.

I recommend Muir lettuce. Easy to germinate, doesn't bolt or get bitter, big heads, and 50 days from seed to mouth. Johnnyseeds and Harris sells it.

Keep your lettuce seeds in an air tight container in the freezer and they will last for years. I just germinated Paris Island Romaine from 2019.

I am still a big fan of Sun Orange but am set for the season. Another great one is Sun Citron. Osborne seeds sells the most Tokita brand tomatoes of any vendor. At one time, I did a 100 count order and found people (TV at the time) to split it. It worked out great.

[rossomendblot]

I personally only use scallions and don’t really cook with onions too often, so a non bulbing one is ideal for me. Is rust an issue with Ishikura specifically or most varieties?

Ishikura is the only spring onion that has been affected by rust in my garden. I've grown about 5 other varieties and none of them have ever been touched by rust, despite my garlic getting it every season.

[mincent]

I would stay away from any of the Salvanova (and also try to avoid pelleted lettuce seeds if possible). I bought Salvanova twice, once was the variety pack. The Salvanova seeds didn't even last a season before they stopped germinating. Pelleted lettuce seeds also have a shorter germination span but not as bad as Salvanova.

I recommend Muir lettuce. Easy to germinate, doesn't bolt or get bitter, big heads, and 50 days from seed to mouth. Johnnyseeds and Harris sells it.

Keep your lettuce seeds in an air tight container in the freezer and they will last for years. I just germinated Paris Island Romaine from 2019.

I am still a big fan of Sun Orange but am set for the season. Another great one is Sun Citron. Osborne seeds sells the most Tokita brand tomatoes of any vendor. At one time, I did a 100 count order and found people (TV at the time) to split it. It worked out great.

Thanks for the advice @Barb_FL! Is it mostly the pelleted germination issues keeping you from growing Salanova again, or was it a mediocre performer as well? I was planning to grow a few for myself and let one bolt, giving away the rest of the pellets. Muir looks really good, but again I’m just picky about my lettuce and want to try a green butterhead.

I have some airtight tupperware I plant to store the rest of my seeds in, though—maybe I’ll get some silica gel packets or something to keep them dry as well.

SunCitron and SunPeach were two Tokita varieties that I really want to grow in the future after seeing your reviews! I hope to save up and dedicate some more space at my family’s home or my apartment so eventually I can go wild with seed purchases and splurge.

[mincent]

I personally only use scallions and don’t really cook with onions too often, so a non bulbing one is ideal for me. Is rust an issue with Ishikura specifically or most varieties?

Ishikura is the only spring onion that has been affected by rust in my garden. I've grown about 5 other varieties and none of them have ever been touched by rust, despite my garlic getting it every season.

Gotcha—at least it’s limited to one variety? Does rust usually wipe out your Ishikura and garlic entirely, or just reduce plant health/yield? And are all the garlic varieties susceptible as well?

[Acer Rubrum]

With limited space, you might consider using hanging baskets as well. I've found they're great for gaining more space and most low growing crops work in them. I have some 14 inch ones that I use every year. You do have to make sure that whatever you hang them on can take the weight, especially when they're recently watered.

I haven't used any of the varieties of tomatoes you listed in baskets, but I've found some that do well as hanging plants. (And I've found many that don't, lol.). I tried Maglia Rosa last year and it was awesome in a basket and tasted great. My other standard basket tomatoes are Garden Pearl and Spanish Dancer.

Have you considered getting a few walking onions? We use them for green onions and you'll never have to worry about buying more once you have them.