Stabilizing my first cross

[bower]

Hmmm, and the antho/red is the mother in the cross? So if the antho is Aft, the F1 will look a lot like the mother. Only in F2, you will start to get around one in four that are plain red.
If you have doubts and are anxious about the wait, what about growing a few seeds of the mother plant, so you can compare those leaf differences? And reassure yourself that something different is going on.
After giving advice not to bother with the PL plan, I feel bad that there's nothing to confirm your F1.
Is there any difference in the size or shape of fruit, that would give you a clue? Smaller size in the wild parent would show through in F1.

[Pippin]

I think the mother and F1 plants are already in the pictures.

For me, the differences between the mother and the F1 are significant enough to indicate a successful cross. Small differences account here.

When I grow these parallel plants, I try to keep the conditions exactly the same, e.g. equal amount of plants in equal sized pots. Then the comparison is easier.

[Mark_Thompson]

Yes I did grow mother and F1 side by side like Pippin recommended months back, I can’t say exactly what the difference is but they do appear a little different. With the father being a wild type I guess I hoped the foliage and growth habit of the F1 would be obviously distinct from the mother. The father has tiny red currant sized fruits, so in a month or less I should see what the maybe F1 fruits look like.

Thanks for the continuing advice and support y’all.

[Mark_Thompson]

The actual mother plant in late November when I made the cross is pictured below. Looking at leaf shape I’m feeling very optimistic.

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[Mark_Thompson]

Got my first fruit set with F2 seeds growing in there. Not sure if I will continue this project, my original goal was to try breed something Septoria resistant, but since then I found Bacterial Spot in the garden, so Septoria might be the least of my worries.

Thank you to everyone who posted above and got me pointed in the right direction, looking forward to my next project or projects, whatever those may be.

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[Pippin]

Sorry to hear if this project is not going any further. I thought you had such an interesting project.

I have no understanding on Bacterial Spot, Septoria or what challenges they might bring to your project. Just that selection for any type of resistance towards plant pathogenes is only possible when the pathogen is physically present in the breeding project. Just trying to say that maybe there are opportunities in such situation too.

I have grown a couple of experimental crosses to some F1-F4 generation just for fun and curiosity, and enjoyed it. There is always the option for growing just one or two plants for a couple of generations without any very serious breeding goals - just to learn and observe.

[bower]

I agree with Pippin, that it would be too bad to simply abandon your interesting cross without taking a look at the F2!
I don't have much experience with diseases except for the handful of fungal ones we get here. But I try to select plants that are robust to the whole range of diseases that we get. Those wild type tomato relatives often have resistance to one or more things, so it may handle the bacterial spot as well, it's not out of the question.
Also I wouldn't judge resistance based on the F1. You need to get those F2s out to see what kind of range of resistance you get in the recombination. You could get an antho cherry that's as resistant as the wild parent.


I think the main problem with Bacterial Spot is that it can be seedborne. There are some things to be done about that, starting with only taking seed from unaffected fruit of course.
Iirc from reading about it some time ago, that it is spread by rain, so the disease may blow in from another area.
This means you could have a bad season one year, and a good season the next.
So for the purpose of ensuring you don't lose your line, always keep some seed back in case they are all affected in a really bad year and you can't get uncontaminated seed. There are other things you might learn along the way, like getting seed from early fruit or some other strategy that allows safe seed collection for your next generations.

[Mark_Thompson]

Whew, the cyber bullying on this site!

Alright I’ll definitely grow some F2s, no promises after that though. I think it’s a good idea, and I’m almost certainly going to learn something so let’s do it. Thanks for the encouragement.

[Mark_Thompson]

Alright got some ripe fruits off my F1. Going to grow some seeds, and have a few of my friends grow some too.

Planning to try and select for disease resistance, and then secondarily taste and hopefully some antho for looks.

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[Mark_Thompson]

Planted four F2’s today, they’re certainly punchy looking little plants, about 6” tall and throwing suckers at every leaf junction. I’m going to grow them in cages mostly unpruned as that’s how I would eventually like to grow cherry tomatoes in the winter.

I have six more baby plants that I’m going to send to my brother, friend, and cousin who all live nearby. Not putting all these eggs in the same basket.

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[Mark_Thompson]

Got fruits on all of my F2s, slowly making progress. All vigorous fast growing plants.

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[MissS]

My experience has been that F2's are always very strong and vigorous. I wish that all tomato plants would be so strong.

[Mark_Thompson]

So only one of the six F2’s that I have reports on has any signs of antho. But I guess one is really all you need huh?

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[bower]

One is the one alright!

[Mark_Thompson]

I’ve got a dilemma. One of my F2 plants has delicious plain red fruits, one has beautiful antho on the shoulders but tastes boring as hell. They seem equivalent in all other ways.

Do I have better odds of finding antho in later generations if I choose the tasty one? Or of finding good taste if I choose the pretty one?

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[bower3]

Save seeds for both of them. That way whichever one you try, if the next generation is a dud you can try the other line instead. Or grow out both if you have the space. If you only save one and it disappoints, you've lost your other chance.
Fred Hempel gave the advice "Never select away from taste".
I have pretty much followed that advice - and ultimately, that's most important to me. I don't really want a tomato more fun to look at than it is to eat. Same goes for ultra earliness, disease resistance and so on, all the important traits are pointless without flavor.
So if I only had space for one, I'd likely grow the tasty red first, looking for taste + antho.
And when you think about it, taste is a complex trait made up of many parts, while antho is one or two genes at most. So it may be a lot easier to recover antho from the red line than to recover taste from the antho line.

A final possibility to consider, if you are really determined to have a tasty antho, is to backcross the antho to the tasty red.
If the red has the recessive antho gene, then 50% of that F1 will be antho. This gives you a next generation with more chances to find antho and taste together.
I would still save seeds of both of the F2s anyway, but this is why I have a binder full of seeds. I have not used all my backups by a long shot but every now and then it's super helpful or just fun to go back and revisit a backcross or a line that didn't get a spot yet to grow.

[Doffer]

Go for taste.

[Frosti]

Another option is to cross both lines right now (if your season is long enough). Use the better tasting one as the female parent.
@bower3, afaik multiple genes can affect the expression and concentration of antho. I don't know the genotype of the antho plants I've worked with, but ALL of the F1s had some antho expression (obviously not as much as the parent). I'd say if @Mark_Thompson can't see any trace of antho in his plain looking fruits then he won't be able to select for it down the line, since it simply isn't there. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Mark_Thompson]

Thanks for the input everyone. I will keep saving seeds from both plants. Maybe as time goes on one will have more longevity or prove more disease resistant.
I do have intentions of selling pint baskets of cherries again someday, so taste isn’t the only criteria like it would be if they were only for my eating.