First time to grow a potato leaf

[TX-TomatoBug]

I planted two seeds of Cowlick's Brandywine in a cell. Here's what came up. First two true leaves of one are clearly PL. But first two true leaves of the other look RL to me. Is this normal for a PL vine? I actually have two cells that are like this.

Cowlick's Brandywine PL or RL. jpeg

[karstopography]

One looks to be a cross.

[MissS]

Cowlicks's is a PL plant. I would cull the RL seedlings. It seems that you have either a mixed pack of seeds or a cross. Hopefully your PL's will grow true to type.

[TX-TomatoBug]

Ok, I was afraid of that. I'll cull the imposters out and hope for the best. Thank you, @karstopography and @MissS.

[wykvlvr]

Actually I would wait until they have at least a couple of sets of leaves before culling. I have noticed that some of my PL varieties look regular leaf until they get their 2nd or 3rd set of leaves.

[TX-TomatoBug]

Oops. Wonder if seedlings will re-root in a glass of water.

I've got 4 that are clear PL which is plenty. Nevertheless, being unable to resist a good experiment, I dug them out of the trash and put their limp little bodies in a glass of water.

[MissS]

They are pretty resilient.

[Greatgardens]

Actually I would wait until they have at least a couple of sets of leaves before culling. I have noticed that some of my PL varieties look regular leaf until they get their 2nd or 3rd set of leaves.

I have noticed the same thing. I would be suspicious of the RL, but I wouldn't dispose of them yet.

[TX-TomatoBug]

@MissS Resilient indeed - they perked up within an hour and are now growing roots. Amazing!

The second pair of leaves on both revived seedlings do look more potato-ish. I'll post a follow-up pic in a few weeks. Will be helpful to know if I should keep or toss the pack of seeds.

[TX-TomatoBug]

Here's one of the PLs and one of the RLs. Clearly mixed or crossed seed.

So I understand that if it is mixed seed, I can grow the PL out and its seed should be fine. But if it is crossed seed, seed from the PL will be unreliable. Is that correct?

And the only way to know for sure if mixed or crossed seed would be to grow both the PL and RL out for a few generations for comparison, right?

Cowlick's Brandywine PL and Pretender.jpeg

[leftylogan]

It's most likely a mixed seed with a tiny chance at being a genetic mutation. Potato leaf is a recessive trait so it doesn't show up until the 2nd generation unless it was Potato Leaf x Potato Leaf. IIRC the leaf shape is pretty stable once selected for but the fruit would take a couple of generations to start seeing consistency. That's why using a potato leaf as a mother plant is a recommended practice when learning how to cross because you'll know in the seedling stage if your cross took as all the seedlings would be regular leafed.

[TX-TomatoBug]

@leftylogan, thank you very much for that info. Gives me hope that the PL is good to go. I'm sure I will end up growing them both out because I can't resist seeing what the RL will produce...

[Shule]

I'm guessing what probably happened is that some of the seeds were cross-pollinated, and some were self-pollinated. That happens a lot with seeds from the same fruit. If the parent was PL, then that should be the case unless the seeds got mixed up. If the seeds were not mixed up, then the PL ones would be true-to-type, and the RL ones would be F1 crosses.

If the parent was RL (and the seeds were not mixed up), however, then all the seeds should be F2+ crosses, regardless of their leaf type. F1s would all be RL if there was a stable parent of each leaf type.

If the seeds were mixed up, then both are likely true to type, but not the same variety. Well, there's a possibility the stray seeds were F1+ hybrids.

PL is recessive. RL is dominant. Each seed is capable of receiving a unit of pollen (it doesn't particularly have to be from the same parent that pollinates its sibling seeds). I don't think I've ever seen more than one cross in the same fruit, though (but it's definitely possible). However, it's fairly common for some seeds to be self-pollinated and some to be from a cross.

[leftylogan]

^ Listen to Shule I got some of my logic backwards from the original post but you also followed where I was going with it.

[BlackKrim]

I don't know anything about this subject; but could someone tell me how many different Brandywines there are? I have never heard of Cowlicks.

I grow a potato leaf type from time to time from saved seeds (which seem to keep their viability for ages without special storage) and am not sure, but I did obtain some Brandywine (Sudduth) seed many years ago (about 30 years). It is a wonderful tasting tom.

Also, while I am here, is there a difference between "variety" and "strain"? Thanx.

[karstopography]

I don't know anything about this subject; but could someone tell me how many different Brandywines there are? I have never heard of Cowlicks.

I grow a potato leaf type from time to time from saved seeds (which seem to keep their viability for ages without special storage) and am not sure, but I did obtain some Brandywine (Sudduth) seed many years ago (about 30 years). It is a wonderful tasting tom.

Also, while I am here, is there a difference between "variety" and "strain"? Thanx.

https://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Bra ... _Cowlick%2

The Cowlick’s moniker came about from the name of the nursery in Tennessee the original plant came from. Mike Henry recognized some improved traits with this one plant from that particular nursery as compared to other Brandywine tomatoes he was growing so he saved seeds and continued to grow it out in subsequent seasons.

Isn’t a strain a subdivision of a variety? For example, Brandywine would be the variety and there would be a number of strains of Brandywine like Sudduth’s, Cowlick’s, Glick’s, etc.

[BlackKrim]

...some of the seeds were cross-pollinated, and some were self-pollinated.

And all this time I thought that cross pollination hardly ever happened, that all toms were self pollinated. Is there a Tomato Knowledge Kindergarten anywhere for those of us who never even got the basics?

[leftylogan]

...some of the seeds were cross-pollinated, and some were self-pollinated.

And all this time I thought that cross pollination hardly ever happened, that all toms were self pollinated. Is there a Tomato Knowledge Kindergarten anywhere for those of us who never even got the basics?

Tomatoes are good self-pollinators you aren't far off. The pistil's (comprised of the three female parts of a flower - stigma, style and ovary) in tomatoes likes to stay concealed by the anther cones of the stamen (male parts). There are of course varieties of tomatoes where the pistil extends past the stamen and are more likely to be naturally cross pollinated.

I'm sure there's a better "kindergarten" out there now than when I last looked but I think most of us just picked up bits and pieces mostly from the internet over a long time. Combine that with any background biology knowledge you have and that's as close to kindergarten as it gets unfortunately.

There is an internet project called the "The Beautifully Promiscuous and Tasty Tomato Project" that is creating a "grex" or interbreeding population of tomatoes with extended pistils to encourage cross pollination and I'll leave you with some links about that. The threads can get a little into the weeds but there's good pictures of pistils and flower shapes.

https://permies.com/t/promiscuous-tomatoes

https://opensourceplantbreeding.org/for ... opic=538.0

[TX-TomatoBug]

@Shule, thank you for that great info. Seems that there are several possibilities and no convenient way to know. But the joy of growing them out will persist. One moral of this for me is to bag my blooms if I want the best chance of preserving my varieties.

@karstopography, I chose to try Cowlick's Brandywine primarily from your posts about on your Texan thread! And there are a few others here that appreciate Cowlick's also.

@BlackKrim, I think this forum is a great K-university tomato school. And talk about affordable tuition...!

[karstopography]

@TX-TomatoBug

On Tatiana’s, there’s a grower, Susan Anderson, from Bastrop that posted reviews of a number of different varieties of tomatoes. I linked to her particular page.

https://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/TX_AN_S

Posts are from 2008, but I think 181 varieties are covered.

There was also a grower in Pasadena Texas, Michael Gunn, that has close to 400.

They way I look at these accounts is if these individuals had good results with a particular variety, for me especially with Michael Gunn in Pasadena as that’s pretty much identical in climate to my location, then, in theory, I should be able to have similar results.