Page 1 of 1
Is it overcrowding?
Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:21 am
by xwindowuser
Last season I did some heirlooms that were supposed to produce large quantities. I think they were krims. and some polish ones too.
They seems to grow very tall and leggy where as the guy who gave me the seeds his were not and produced abundantly.
I grow in 5 gallon buckets on a rain gutter system and I think I'm over crowding adn maybe that's why mine didn't start producing until late.
The photos below are when the season started and the plants were small. I have large cages but by they time they started producing they were taller than the cages.
Typically the gutter is about 5' long, I can squeeze four 5 gallon buckets on there side by side.
I'm thinking I should only have 3 buckets on there.
I'll post a current photo tomorrow when it's light out.
Overcrowded?

Re: Is it overcrowding?
Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:09 am
by brownrexx
I am no expert on container gardening as all of my tomatoes are grown in ground in cages and I do not prune them. In my opinion smaller plants like yours will always produce less yield than big bushy plants. If you want big yields, you probably need bigger plants but I am sure that your plants will produce some good tasting tomatoes.
That's a nice looking set up.
Re: Is it overcrowding?
Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:37 am
by bower
Plants can get leggy for one or more reasons. Overcrowding doesn't look to be a problem yet in your pic, but a lack of direct sunshine is a very common reason for legginess or failing to produce until higher on the plant. So the first question I would ask, is the lower part of the plants shaded or are they getting full sun.
On the crowding question, if they are getting some shade there and also shading one another, your idea of putting three per gutter (and maybe something shade tolerant in the two spacer buckets) should help.
(I do grow in containers, and in my greenhouse which is shadier and below ground I have to space them out to get enough sun. But I've also put containers outdoors in a row as you have, and did not have a problem with shade issues at the tight spacing.)
OTOH if they are getting sun on the whole plant, the next question I would look at is fertilizer. High N will produce more foliage than fruit. High phosphorus will induce flowering and fruiting early, especially in a container. Potassium is necessary for fruit quality including sweetness, and higher K will tend to produce stockier plants with big stems. So I would look at your ferts balance as a way to tweak for production if direct sun is not the issue.
Re: Is it overcrowding?
Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:33 am
by xwindowuser
again folks these photos were when they were just starting out.
I'll attach a photo of the tomatoes I grow during winter here in San Diego. Normally this is way more crowded during summer.
they get full sun and the shade cloth on the fence is so they don't get baked. 1st year at this house they didn't do well because the sun reflected off the white fence and killed them.
Fertilizer I used in these pots is Scotts flower and vegetable 10-10-10. but I'm switching to master blend tomato.
Masterblend: 4-18-38
with the addition of calcium nitrate: 15.5-0-0 to raise eh nitrogen a little more. Used this with an aeroponic system and is a really good mix.
instead of mixing the scotts in the soil I'll be adding the other to the water instead.
I'm starting to think it's the fertilizer.

Re: Is it overcrowding?
Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:43 pm
by Rockoe10
I'll add by saying water can cause defoliation. 5 gal buckets can dry up real fast in the sun and heat. If the plants can't get enough water then the plant will also have issues accessing the nutrients in the soil. Which can cause additional foliage problems.
Re: Is it overcrowding?
Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:50 pm
by xwindowuser
the pots are autowatered. they have a wicking system that draws water up form the raingutter they are sitting on. they never go without water.
Re: Is it overcrowding?
Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:06 pm
by bower
Check out the threads by some of our Florida growers, some of them use earthbox systems similar in principle to yours, and liquid fert systems too.
Personally I do think you'll see a difference by changing your ferts, but they would know even better, the ideal NPK balance for tomatoes in a wicking system. The higher K in the one you mentioned is definitely a step towards a sturdier more compact plant habit.
Re: Is it overcrowding?
Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:08 am
by Nan6b
5 gal. buckets are small. Bigger buckets might make it easier to get bigger yields.
Re: Is it overcrowding?
Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:18 am
by peebee
Well, I think it wouldn't hurt to have a bit more space between plants. The foliage seems to be touching eachother; air circulation is rather important in preventing diseases.
Another option is to try growing the single or double stem method. I tried this for the first time 2 years ago and after learning from my mistakes I'm quite happy with this method now. I grow in Earthboxes mainly, and I grow 2 to a box. This year, I'm thinking of doing a side by side test, growing 2 single stem tomatoes in 1 box, and 1 unpruned tomato in another, all of the same variety.
I had gorgeous winter tomatoes growing this year till rats ate everything & I had to pull out what was left to prevent them from coming to look for more free food. Otherwise I'd have pics to share here

Re: Is it overcrowding?
Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:05 am
by mama_lor
Based on your pictures I would say they are a tad overcrowded but not terribly (a foot or so more between buckets would be great). They don't exhibit that droopy leaf typical of low light. Touching each other and the wall so much however probably does trigger some type of internode elongation. Production shouldn't be affected that much in this case, that is probably more due to the fertilization scheme (foliage looks kinda thin, especially the late pic, maybe the root system has trouble sustaining all those stems or not enough nutrients).
Re: Is it overcrowding?
Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 1:18 pm
by MissS
mama_lor wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:05 am
Based on your pictures I would say they are a tad overcrowded but not terribly (a foot or so more between buckets would be great). They don't exhibit that droopy leaf typical of low light. Touching each other and the wall so much however probably does trigger some type of internode elongation. Production shouldn't be affected that much in this case, that is probably more due to the fertilization scheme (foliage looks kinda thin, especially the late pic, maybe the root system has trouble sustaining all those stems or not enough nutrients).
Welcome to the Junction mama_lor!
Re: Is it overcrowding?
Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:41 am
by mama_lor
Thank you!
Re: Is it overcrowding?
Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2021 2:20 am
by JRinPA

From the spacing in that pic, I have to think they would do better limited to 1 or 2 stems each. I have been doing this more and more each year and like the results in yield of large tomatoes. In ground, my plant spacing is 12-18" in the row, so basically that is doubling or tripling the amount of root per surface area compared to 36" spacing. Meaning more nutrient uptake. But the stems must be culled down vigorously to keep them tamed and growing large fruit.
I also have 10ft of double rowed rain gutter, twenty 3.3 gal buckets in total. This year I will drop one bucket out to make nine in each, using the space for 5 gal fill bucket with a float. The 3.3 gal buckets I use are filled with compost/horse manure/ peat/ perlite / and a ring of 10-10-10 (for peppers) and I don't use liquid ferts.
The setup has been in use for a few years now, but I have never grown tomatoes in it. Peppers do fantastic. Tomatoes...to me it would seem to be too much water. I'd think the tomatoes would be watery. That, and I can do excellent tomatoes in ground. If I try tomatoes, I would limit them to 2 stems at most for air space and draw on the nutrients. In the pic above, the fence is restricting airflow as well, so that is another reason to keep it more open.
Another thing I have tried with the rain gutter, rather unsuccessfully, is to grow a tall vegetable and then a short vegetable, alternating the buckets. It doesn't seem to work though, as the tall stuff will elbow out over the short plants. My buckets are in fact touching, though, closer than those pictured. The peppers absolutely love the gutter system - I just florida weave all the buckets in a line. Eggplant should love it too, they love hot soil. I'm just not sold on tomatoes. Maybe with that setup you could grow basil every other bucket and 3 stems per plant? I have never tried determinants or smaller plants, but that might be another option.
I don't see many pics from this year of the rain gutter, but here is one close up from early July and the first round of peppers. Peppers seem to love it tight and don't get the foliage diseases that tomatoes will in the same proximity.
01.jpg