2022/2023 variety questions and maybe answers

[Scooty]

Nowhere is it written how many words the name of a tomato variety should consist of. As for the name, the right to give it a name belongs either to the breeder of this tomato or, in the case of heirloom tomatoes, to whoever finds this variety in a village, for example. Whoever found these tomatoes and put their seeds into circulation called them Gallego and Zamorano. He also decided that no other tomato could be called that. It is not true that you cannot use the name of the region as a name, for example, Czech bush, Russian black, Blak Krim, etc.
Comparing Negro de Santiago to Gallego is completely off the mark. They don't look alike at all. Negro de Santiago is a beautiful tomato that I also grew and photographed in 2017, but at the end of the year my computer crashed and I lost all the photos, which I regret to this day.
I don't want to promote the Tomatoville forum here, but it's a shame you can't log in there. Questions about the names of tomatoes were quite often solved there, even with the participation of many who switched to this forum (Tomatojunction). For me, it is such a fountain of knowledge, just like Tatian's TOMATObase.
Vladimír

Vlad is right on the dot with his explanation. I put a cherry called "pink cherry" from a mutant in the MMMM. (You can hate people like me). Also, there are plenty of historical examples to add to Vlad's list too like Polish (and the god knows how many strains or duplicates, i.e. Polish Ellis, etc...) that exist

There are no hard and fast rules for the name. Tradition may preference to the breeder to name, but that's not definitive. There are plenty of times where it's not a breeder. It may be someone on vacation that picked up seed from a farmer's market, etc... There are LOADS of tomatoes on the EE MMMM that were introduced by Lindalana, who often gave generic names to them.

[Moth1992]

I dont hate on anyone, defenetly not on tomato names!

Im just explaining how tomato varieties are named in Spain. I dont know how they name them in poland or russia. I know how they name them in my home country wich is different than how they name them in the US where I live.

There are about 20 tomato varieties with denominaciones de origen from Galicia. And 100s non registered ones. Those are all tomates gallegos. Nobody can decide other varietes from galicia are not tomates gallegos.

Negro de santiago is a tomate gallego with denominación de origen and the ministery of agriculture from galicia will tell you its a tomate gallego.

Generic names are fine. But they are that, generic and dont refer to a particular variety ( with exceptions).

We could call this the MMMM Gallego.

[MrBig46]

I dont hate on anyone, defenetly not on tomato names!

Im just explaining how tomato varieties are named in Spain. I dont know how they name them in poland or russia. I know how they name them in my home country wich is different than how they name them in the US where I live.

There are about 20 tomato varieties with denominaciones de origen from Galicia. And 100s non registered ones. Those are all tomates gallegos. Nobody can decide other varietes from galicia are not tomates gallegos.

Negro de santiago is a tomate gallego with denominación de origen and the ministery of agriculture from galicia will tell you its a tomate gallego.

Generic names are fine. But they are that, generic and dont refer to a particular variety ( with exceptions).

We could call this the MMMM Gallego.

„Im just explaining how tomato varieties are named in Spain. I dont know how they name them in poland or russia. I know how they name them in my home country wich is different than how they name them in the US where I live.“
You may have been born in Spain, but that doesn't mean you know exactly what tomatoes are called there. I got the Gallego seeds and others from a native Spaniel who still lives there and was involved in growing tomatoes JAO Lopez (Baikal). He doesn't communicate much on Tomatoville because he has problems with English, but as far as I know he was very active and well known on a similar Spanish forum. So the names originated in Spain, I don't know exactly who gave them to these tomatoes and I don't care either. I just maintain them and try to offer them to other growers if possible.
„ the ministery of agriculture from galicia will tell you its a tomate gallego.“ or „gallegos“
There is a significant difference between gallego (gallegos) and Gallego in that the first capital letter means that it is a name! That's how it is here, I assume in the USA and elsewhere in the world.
I don't understand at all why this tomato should be called MMMM Gallego when its real name is Gallego. Tormato does not do the MMMM action to give the tomatoes another name like MMMM Brandywine.
Vladimír

[bjbebs]

Moth
I've grown Gallego, Zamorano and Salobre many times. Seeds for all 3 reds originally came from Vlad. Gallego will average 14-16 oz fruit, Zamorano makes a much larger fruit but can be a bit stingy. Salobre is very late and makes a 20-24 oz tomato and can be very productive in an extended season. These RL varieties need space, especially Salobre.
Vlad knows Spanish tomatoes better than anyone on this site and is very protective of correct names. Sometimes things can be lost in translation.
If you need seed Moth, shoot me a message. These are excellent tasting tomatoes, Salobre being my favorite.

[Tormato]

@MrBig46 has posted about Gallego and Zamorano here and at Tville; he has put up info and pictures for them at Tatiana's Tomatobase. Here's a post with links to what he submitted to Tatiana's: post85639.html?hilit=gallego#p85639

Oooh thankyou!

@MrBig46 are these the ones that made it to the MMMM swap do we know?

@MissS the dificulty with spanish varieties is that 99% of the time they dont have names. They are only "type" from "village".

And types of varieties will be dumped into "type" from "region" categories.

For example Gallego or Zamorano are not varieties, just regions. And each if those regions will have several types and within those, hundreds of varieties each of different villages.

For example that gallego submitted to Tatianas is an unknown variety of
beefsteak red from galicia (and just one of hundreds of gallegos, some of wich are registered varieties, most of wich are not. It almost looks like a relative of the Avoa de Osedo, but who knows.)

Same that Zamorano is an unknown variety of red beefsteak from Zamora.

Would be super useful to know if these are the unknown varieties in the MMMM swap, or if they are others, to narrow it down a bit.

"the difficulty with spanish varieties is that 99% of the time they don't have names."

Exactly. So, what to do? Someone names them.

I'll stick with J.A.O.Lopez naming them Gallego, Zamorano, Salobre, etc...

then sharing them with Vlad, who shared them with bjbebs, who sent them to the MMMM swap.

[Moth1992]

Welp, If yall happy with it yall happy with it.

Its still not a variety name outside of MMMM and not a variety name in spain or in infojardin. Its just the vague region those seeds came from. But we are not convincing eachother otherwise.

Thanks all for confirming they are red gordo varieties. Thats what the info I was after!

[Tormato]

Welp, If yall happy with it yall happy with it.

Its still not a variety name outside of MMMM and not a variety name in spain or in infojardin. Its just the vague region those seeds came from. But we are not convincing eachother otherwise.

Thanks all for confirming they are red gordo varieties. Thats what the info I was after!

I don't think you're following the history.

Prior to my receiving seeds, it was named outside of the MMMM.

Prior to bjbebs receiving seeds, it was named outside of his group of traders.

Prior to Vlad receiving seeds, it was named outside of his group of traders.

J.A.O. Lopez is from Spain, and uses the name. So, therefore it is a variety name in Spain. It's a stable, distinct variety. It doesn't matter if it was named after a vague region. Unless someone comes up with the naming history of the tomato, prior to Lopez' use, it will be known around the world, and it has traveled around the world for the past decade or more, by that name.

[Moth1992]

Nah. We will have to agree to disagree . Because I intensely disagree. Not how it works in Spain.

[Tormato]

Nah. We will have to agree to disagree . Because I intensely disagree. Not how it works in Spain.

Enlighten me on how it "works" in Spain, in identifying tomato varieties, when you've said that 99% of them are unnamed.

[WoodSprite]

Question for @HL2601. You sent seeds labeled as:

COEUR ROSE DE PRESSAC
Mid Striped Pink Heart
Wispy 7-14 oz

Googling I find:
Coeur Rose De Pessac that is solid pink.
Coeur Rose Strie de Pessac that is striped pink/orange/green with pink interior. (That's one gorgeous tomato!)

From your description of it being striped, I think it's the second one? Can you confirm or correct? Any comment on flavor? Thanks.

[Moth1992]

Oh man i thought you all would be exhausted about this. Ive explained it like 4 times now, I know I am. But ok here we go, last time, by request:

Most spanish tomatoes dont have specific variety names. They are called by a feature (size, color, etc) plus the region they are usually grown.

A region will also have a lot of different strains of similar tomatoes. And different varieties.

For example a Rosa de Barbastro or a Rosa de Somontano are a category of pink tomatoes grown in the area of Somontano, all genetically cousins, and each family in Barbastro had their own home strain of Rosa de Barbastro or Rosa de Somontano wich is slightly different.

They are also called Rosas de Huesca sometimes although that is even more generic and could apply to home strains grown outside of the Somontano. Although they are most likely genetically very related.

The regions might try to protect their varieties by giving them a denominacion de origen wich guarantees the rosa in question is from Somontano only and not a different rosa.

And Huesca also will have other heirloom varieties of different colors and sizes. The bigger the region the more different categories (rojo, gordo, negro, etc)

Some varieties are more predominant and popular in a small region. For example a Zamorano heirloom will tipically be a rosa, not a rojo gordo like the one circulating on MMMM.

That is why we dont identify tomato varieties only by region or only by a feature ( with few exceptions).

If somebody in infojardin traded seed from Huesca, and called it de Huesca, is not that its a specific isolated variety called "de Huesca" that is different than a Rosa de Huesca like a Brandywine is. Its seed from an undefined strain that comes from Huesca. If its pink its a Rosa de Huesca, and most likely a close strain to a Rosa de Barbastro or Somontano.

If they traded seed called Rosa de Barbastro de Manolo, then you know its a particular strain of Rosa de Huesca grown by Manolos family in the town of Barbastro.

For example the one circulating on MMMM called Garrote Bicolor Aracenes, is a strain of Rosa de Aracenes that the family of Garrote have been growing and mantaining and that produced pink and orange tomatoes, so the son gave it his family name (just few years ago) to identify it as a unique variety.

Remember that in Spain pretty much every family is growing their own tomatoes for multiple generations. There are bazillion strains of bazillion heirloom varieties. So variety naming is a different beast than in other countries.

Hope this explains.

To be honest its kinda rude that Im being told by non spaniards they know better about how my country names food. Im open to questions in good faith or if any spaniard here has a different opinion im happy to debate based on our different regional cultural experiences, but otherwise I already deal with enough mansplaining on a day to day basis, its exhausting.

Anyways I hope you all enjoy some tasty spanish ( or not) tomatoes this year.

I just seeded my micros because I have no patience.

[MrBig46]

Oh man i thought you all would be exhausted about this. Ive explained it like 4 times now, I know I am. But ok here we go, last time, by request:

Most spanish tomatoes dont have specific variety names. They are called by a feature (size, color, etc) plus the region they are usually grown.

A region will also have a lot of different strains of similar tomatoes. And different varieties.

For example a Rosa de Barbastro or a Rosa de Somontano are a category of pink tomatoes grown in the area of Somontano, all genetically cousins, and each family in Barbastro had their own home strain of Rosa de Barbastro or Rosa de Somontano wich is slightly different.

They are also called Rosas de Huesca sometimes although that is even more generic and could apply to home strains grown outside of the Somontano. Although they are most likely genetically very related.

The regions might try to protect their varieties by giving them a denominacion de origen wich guarantees the rosa in question is from Somontano only and not a different rosa.

And Huesca also will have other heirloom varieties of different colors and sizes. The bigger the region the more different categories (rojo, gordo, negro, etc)

Some varieties are more predominant and popular in a small region. For example a Zamorano heirloom will tipically be a rosa, not a rojo gordo like the one circulating on MMMM.

That is why we dont identify tomato varieties only by region or only by a feature ( with few exceptions).

If somebody in infojardin traded seed from Huesca, and called it de Huesca, is not that its a specific isolated variety called "de Huesca" that is different than a Rosa de Huesca like a Brandywine is. Its seed from an undefined strain that comes from Huesca. If its pink its a Rosa de Huesca, and most likely a close strain to a Rosa de Barbastro or Somontano.

If they traded seed called Rosa de Barbastro de Manolo, then you know its a particular strain of Rosa de Huesca grown by Manolos family in the town of Barbastro.

For example the one circulating on MMMM called Garrote Bicolor Aracenes, is a strain of Rosa de Aracenes that the family of Garrote have been growing and mantaining and that produced pink and orange tomatoes, so the son gave it his family name (just few years ago) to identify it as a unique variety.

Remember that in Spain pretty much every family is growing their own tomatoes for multiple generations. There are bazillion strains of bazillion heirloom varieties. So variety naming is a different beast than in other countries.

Hope this explains.

To be honest its kinda rude that Im being told by non spaniards they know better about how my country names food. Im open to questions in good faith or if any spaniard here has a different opinion im happy to debate based on our different regional cultural experiences, but otherwise I already deal with enough mansplaining on a day to day basis, its exhausting.

Anyways I hope you all enjoy some tasty spanish ( or not) tomatoes this year.

I just seeded my micros because I have no patience.

You could have forgiven that lecture. We are not ordinary school students here, but tomato growers with many years of experience. Everyone here knows what a regional variety is, a family heirloom and, conversely, a commercial variety. You act as if you were the Spanish Minister of Agriculture, who but cannot influence the name of any tomato and cannot prevent tomatoes from living their own lives. And that's good. No one told you to grow Gallego, Zamorano, etc. tomatoes. You can go to the countryside and find them there.
You are not the only spaniel here and I don't understand how you assume the right to criticize someone here (eg Baikal, Nico, etc.) when you haven't shown anything yet.
I personally do not care at all what tomatoes you grow and will grow and what you call them. Have a nice day,
Vladimír

[WoodSprite]

@Moth1992, I hear what you are saying about how each family has their own tomato variety or varieties and I understand what you are saying about the naming in Spain. However, once someone takes one of those varieties or strains and makes it available to a wider population, they get to name it what they want to name it. I understand that those selected names can be confusing to people in Spain that may call lots of different varieties or strains by the same or similar names but once they are made available worldwide, they need to be called something. Using the names they were given by the people who decided to introduce them to a wider audience is the way that it is done.

I sincerely hope you don't get frustrated and leave this forum. Maybe we all should just let the subject drop?

[OhioGardener]

Any info on any of the following would be appreciated; I found nothing:

Aunt Eula's Rockhouse Pink
Bijskaya Roza
Dr. Suds Capon Bridge
Faberge
Kitayskiy Oksamitoviy
Peremoga 165

I've grown both Bijskaya Roza and Peremoga 165. BR is a RL indeterminate with medium sized pink fruit, sweet, but not bland, and the overall flavor was very good for me. Peremoga is a RL determinate and topped out at about 2 ft tall with medium-sized red fruit. Flavor was good, not great, but enough to make a dual purpose canner or slicer. It's an old Belarusian variety, bred by Belarusian Research Institute of Veg. Gardening and released in 1951. Both handled a warm Ohio summer with no problem.

[HL2601]

Question for @HL2601. You sent seeds labeled as:

COEUR ROSE DE PRESSAC
Mid Striped Pink Heart
Wispy 7-14 oz

Googling I find:
Coeur Rose De Pessac that is solid pink.
Coeur Rose Strie de Pessac that is striped pink/orange/green with pink interior. (That's one gorgeous tomato!)

From your description of it being striped, I think it's the second one? Can you confirm or correct? Any comment on flavor? Thanks.

Hi WoodSprite-
To clarify- I got my seeds from France and the variety was labeled Coeur Rose de Pressac Strie. I was looking forward to all the gorgeous colors! My tomatoes however were not striped. They were plain Rose hearts, possibly with some faint yellow stripes, occasionally. I did have good production and I liked the tomato. I would say there are other pink hearts I like more-Rozovyi Mood for one.
Hope that helps!
Heide

[WoodSprite]

Question for @HL2601. You sent seeds labeled as:

COEUR ROSE DE PRESSAC
Mid Striped Pink Heart
Wispy 7-14 oz

Googling I find:
Coeur Rose De Pessac that is solid pink.
Coeur Rose Strie de Pessac that is striped pink/orange/green with pink interior. (That's one gorgeous tomato!)

From your description of it being striped, I think it's the second one? Can you confirm or correct? Any comment on flavor? Thanks.

Hi WoodSprite-
To clarify- I got my seeds from France and the variety was labeled Coeur Rose de Pressac Strie. I was looking forward to all the gorgeous colors! My tomatoes however were not striped. They were plain Rose hearts, possibly with some faint yellow stripes, occasionally. I did have good production and I liked the tomato. I would say there are other pink hearts I like more-Rozovyi Mood for one.
Hope that helps!
Heide

Thanks for the details. I wonder if there was a seed mix up in France. Or maybe the Strie variant reverted back to the plain pink variety. The pictures of the Strie one that I found Googling were gorgeous. I did request and get seeds for Rozovyi Myod and plan to grow it when I can fit it in the garden.

[Tormato]

Question for @HL2601. You sent seeds labeled as:

COEUR ROSE DE PRESSAC
Mid Striped Pink Heart
Wispy 7-14 oz

Googling I find:
Coeur Rose De Pessac that is solid pink.
Coeur Rose Strie de Pessac that is striped pink/orange/green with pink interior. (That's one gorgeous tomato!)

From your description of it being striped, I think it's the second one? Can you confirm or correct? Any comment on flavor? Thanks.

Doing a web search, I come up with tomatofifou.com, listing a Coeur Rose Strie de Pessac. It was a spontaneous color mutation of Coeur Rose de Pessac in 2019.

Described as pink with yellow (and green?) stripes, I wonder if the green is just not fully ripened fruit. The picture of the tomato, in the group, on the top left shows no green. For now, I recommend to keep calling it Coeur Rose Strie de Pessac, as it is originally named. I'll be sending out all donated seeds, keeping a few for my own growout. I will list it on the "suggestion card" (in its original name, not the name on the seed pack) for seeds to save for the 2023 MMMM. Hopefully with several growers, we'll know what it is, or isn't. Perhaps there could be more spontaneous mutations.

With about half of packages (35 of 70, or so) either sent or sealed and ready to be sent, I've only put CRSdP in a few. I'll likely start a stand alone thread offering seeds to MMMM participants first, and them to anyone else if any seeds are left over.

[Toomanymatoes]

Coincidentally, I purchased seeds for Coeur Rose Strie de Pessac from Tomatofifou last December.

I can replace something in my 2023 grow list with it if people are interested in it. I promise to record more details this time!

[HL2601]

@Toomanymatoes I would love it you would grow your seed from CTV!
That is where my seeds came from. Human error with the Pressac-it is indeed Pessac. Maybe Tormato, if you have the will and the time ( ha ha) you could scribble out the extra R on the labels I put inside the packages just so everyone is clear going forward. Sorry for that mix up!

Here is a pic of what I got last season. The pic was taken Sept 2022 The tomato pictured weighed 9 oz. Clearly non-strie... A good heart though with good production.
Heide

0263D6AC-72BC-4FC2-8EF9-4AD1305C6DE0_1_201_a.jpeg

[Tormato]

@Toomanymatoes I would love it you would grow your seed from CTV!
That is where my seeds came from. Human error with the Pressac-it is indeed Pessac. Maybe Tormato, if you have the will and the time ( ha ha) you could scribble out the extra R on the labels I put inside the packages just so everyone is clear going forward. Sorry for that mix up!

Here is a pic of what I got last season. The pic was taken Sept 2022 The tomato pictured weighed 9 oz. Clearly non-strie... A good heart though with good production.
Heide
0263D6AC-72BC-4FC2-8EF9-4AD1305C6DE0_1_201_a.jpeg

I, uhmm, recommend washing the plate that it sits upon, before eating.

Actually, I'm fascinated by the background. A rock garden?

Some varieties can have fairly faint stripes. Pealing off the skin, and indirectly viewing it through sunlight can usually show the faintest of stripes, the same stripes that sometimes cannot be seen with artificial indoor lighting.