Is this an heirloom? Orange Russian 117

[BlackKrim]

I am interested in growing an unusual ox heart tom. called Orange Russian 117, unusual because most oxhearts are not bi coloured. Some people refer to it as an "heirloom".

So, is this variety truly an heirloom? Inasmuch as it was bred only about 25 - 30 years ago, it would not match my definition (a variety whose origin is lost in the mists of time or is known for sure to be at least maybe 50 years old) but I defer to the experts here.

Thanks.

[Paulf]

OR 117 was a cross developed in the early 90s and supposed to have been stabilized to make it an OP variety. I have grown it for most of the years it has been available. My experience with Orange Russian #117 has been spotty. Not with whether it is actually stabile but how it performs. One year OR 117 is a great tomato but it may be two or more years it is average.

So I say it is not an heirloom by any definition but a cross worth trying hoping to get the one out of four year success.

[Mark_Thompson]

OR 117 was underwhelming for me also.

[Tormato]

Bicolors, in my garden, are the most variable in flavor, of tomato types. One year, exceedingly sweet and fruity, another year bland and mushy. They seem to be highly sensitive to too much water.

A couple of decades from now, it most likely will be considered a heirloom, not by us, unless somehow all saved seeds are no more. So, why not now? Is it a time matter? Not to me. Any OP tomato, that someone, almost religiously, preserves with a purpose of passing it along to the future, I consider a heirloom.

[MissS]

No OR117 is not an heirloom. It seems that some people call anything that is open pollinated an heirloom which is just not the case.

[Tormato]

No OR117 is not an heirloom. It seems that some people call anything that is open pollinated an heirloom which is just not the case.

In 200 years, will all of those surviving "anything that is open pollinated" become heirlooms? Today or tomorrow, it's still the same tomato. How many current 200 year old heirlooms do we have?

Some will say that a heirloom has to originate before WWII, which was about 80 years ago. Must an heirloom be about 80 years old, and will a tomato just stabilized today be an heirloom in 2104?

While I don't expect the veggie community to adopt it, a designation like with cars, where a "classic heirloom" would be an OP variety of at least (estimated at) 25 years old, and an "antique heirloom" being at least (estimated at) 75 years old, would be better than the current completely undefined heirloom term.

[MissS]

No OR117 is not an heirloom. It seems that some people call anything that is open pollinated an heirloom which is just not the case.

In 200 years, will all of those surviving "anything that is open pollinated" become heirlooms? Today or tomorrow, it's still the same tomato. How many current 200 year old heirlooms do we have?

Some will say that a heirloom has to originate before WWII, which was about 80 years ago. Must an heirloom be about 80 years old, and will a tomato just stabilized today be an heirloom in 2104?

While I don't expect the veggie community to adopt it, a designation like with cars, where a "classic heirloom" would be an OP variety of at least (estimated at) 25 years old, and an "antique heirloom" being at least (estimated at) 75 years old, would be better than the current completely undefined heirloom term.

And then there are those that are starting to call the older hybrids heirlooms just because they have been around the block for awhile. Sigh...

[Tormato]

No OR117 is not an heirloom. It seems that some people call anything that is open pollinated an heirloom which is just not the case.

In 200 years, will all of those surviving "anything that is open pollinated" become heirlooms? Today or tomorrow, it's still the same tomato. How many current 200 year old heirlooms do we have?

Some will say that a heirloom has to originate before WWII, which was about 80 years ago. Must an heirloom be about 80 years old, and will a tomato just stabilized today be an heirloom in 2104?

While I don't expect the veggie community to adopt it, a designation like with cars, where a "classic heirloom" would be an OP variety of at least (estimated at) 25 years old, and an "antique heirloom" being at least (estimated at) 75 years old, would be better than the current completely undefined heirloom term.

And then there are those that are starting to call the older hybrids heirlooms just because they have been around the block for awhile. Sigh...

At least nearly all agree that hybrids are not heirlooms. If I see a posting for hybrid heirlooms, I will attempt to convince them that "classic hybrid" (25 yo) and "antique hybrid" (75 yo) would be the best way to go.

[Mark_Thompson]

Heard some insufferable feller talking about hy-looms the other day (believe he was referring to modern hybrids with “good” taste and oblate shape that he was growing) and could do nothing but shake my head

[Paulf]

Other than most of us on the tomato forums (fora?) most people don't know the difference between heirloom, hybrid, Open Pollenated, classic heirloom, antique heirloom, et cetera. I appreciate the input from all of us considering the subtle differences and philosophy behind what to call whatever we discuss. While OR 117 is strictly by some to be a stable cross, are not most what we call heirlooms stable crosses?

When I first discovered "heirlooms" the term could be applied to crosses that had been stabilized about thirty years previous to that time. Now time seems to have stood still over the ensuing thirty years on what to call an heirloom. So I now declare when asked by anyone if Orange Russian #117 is an heirloom, my answer will be, "Why yes of course", since most who would bother to ask me wouldn't know or really care.

We all know exactly what it is and why we call it what we call it. Few of my friends do...except my forum friends.

[worth1]

Anybody do a search.
It's all over the place with wild stories about where it came from.
From Russia to California.

[Paulf]

Anybody do a search.
It's all over the place with wild stories about where it came from.
From Russia to California.

AKA Dawson's Russian Oxheart) Created by gardening guru and seedsman, Jeff Dawson. Orange Russian 117 is a beautiful cross between Russian 117 and Georgia Streak producing huge, 1-2 lb., heart-shaped, yellow-orange, bi-colored fruit with pink striping and yellow flesh with ribbons of scarlet-red inside. This is a fantastic meaty tomato with pronounced, complex, well-balanced, sweet flavors.

This is an excerpt from Tomatofest, but the same description is used in almost every site talking about or selling seeds for OR117. The Russian part comes from Russian#117, one of the parents popularized by Carolyn Male. (I know Worth not your favorite person, but a legend nonetheless).

[BlackKrim]

Hi. Many thanks for responses and extended discussion. You kind of affirmed what I was thinking - that OR117 is not truly an heirloom the way we thought of them, say, 30 years ago (when "heirlooms" started to become all the rage in popular culture) but rather a kind-of-stable cross still in the youngster/adolescent stage.

@Paulf & Mark: Maybe if you wished to keep growing this variety you would have to buy new seeds every year from different seed companies instead of saving our own - and see what you get, as an experiment.

When reading of any particular tom's provenance, I am impressed by "provably been around for a good long time and 25 years does not quite cut it". By the way, I am not prejudiced against hybrids or young crosses. You should see the variety in my Cow's Tit fruits!

I have further questions regarding seeds given to me about 23 yr. ago by a woman born in Ukraine (she arrived here in the early 50s) and you can be sure that is where the tom was grown. She never assimilated into English speaking Canadian society so these seeds - given to her by another Ukr woman with a similar background - are no North American variety. So, I have been growing this tom for all these years, it is doing well, and so my question is:

At what point can I claim this variety to be an heirloom (I named it years ago) and say that it IS an heirloom from Ukraine? Are there formal procedures etc etc or is everything on a variety's history just gab passed along from one person to another?

Thanks for reading my lengthy screed.

[Tormato]

Anybody do a search.
It's all over the place with wild stories about where it came from.
From Russia to California.

AKA Dawson's Russian Oxheart) Created by gardening guru and seedsman, Jeff Dawson. Orange Russian 117 is a beautiful cross between Russian 117 and Georgia Streak producing huge, 1-2 lb., heart-shaped, yellow-orange, bi-colored fruit with pink striping and yellow flesh with ribbons of scarlet-red inside. This is a fantastic meaty tomato with pronounced, complex, well-balanced, sweet flavors.

This is an excerpt from Tomatofest, but the same description is used in almost every site talking about or selling seeds for OR117. The Russian part comes from Russian#117, one of the parents popularized by Carolyn Male. (I know Worth not your favorite person, but a legend nonetheless).

For a few years, I started calling it Dawson's Russian Oxheart, going back to the original name, until I heard that Jeff wasn't going to fight mob rule, and was OK with Orange Russian 117. I'm sure what Jeff cares more about is many thousands of people enjoying the results of his tomato work.

[worth1]

@Paulf
Don't say that about me.
I loved Carolyn she and I had many wonderful conversations and memories.
On and off line.
I think it's sad how her health and mental state took a downward spiral.

[Paulf]

Sorry, I thought you were at odds…my mistake. Her end of life was very sad indeed. I happened to talk to Carolyn just a short time before her passing and that was disturbing. Anyway, sorry for my wrong assumption.

[JRinPA]

Well, usually, sometimes, I will explain to people that a tomato is not really an heirloom, it is an OP. To me an heirloom means, grandma's tomatoes, mom grew a few, but grandaughter is super excited to grow the same tomatoes grandma did. Actual passed down seed.

This year I tried selling some, and people were excited about heirlooms, and I let them remain excited. I did not argue that an SOO is not actually an heirloom. I did encourage them to save seed and grow some out next year.

And at the same time, I don't see why you COULDN"T call an F1 an heirloom if it is a deliberate cross from two stable parents and that information and parent seed has been passed down. But I wouldn't call Big Boy F1 an heirloom just because it is a classic available at the store every year.

as for OR117? I vote no, OP but not heirloom.

[BlackKrim]

as for OR117? I vote no, OP but not heirloom.


Sounds good to me.

[Paulf]

Harvested and sampled the season's first Orange Russian #117. Not as pretty as some years and the interior is not as bi-color (tri-color) as other years. Both my wife and I rated the flavor as about 6/10. Not bad but not as outstanding as some years.

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[JRinPA]

That is the big one that my brother...left on the vine when he went on vacation. I rescued it and those are the seeds I have been sharing and growing. That was from an unpruned CRW cage plant trenched into lots of fresh compost.

2lb9ozOR117a.jpg

2lb9ozOR117b.jpg

2lb9ozOR117c.jpg

2lb9ozOR117d.jpg

I have not grown it for a few years - the last couple years, it just did not impress. Not very stable on the kitchen counter, wants to collapse quickly compared to some tomatoes.